Heath, Ted

An Interview With David Icke  by RICK MARTIN

By Permission from The SPECTRUM newspaper's Front Page story!
August 3, 1999
To order The SPECTRUM call (877) 280-2866.
www.spectrumnews10.com

Note from Stephanie Relfe:  David Icke does not believe in Jesus, and I understand that he does not even believe in God.  It is my experience that, while much of his information is HIGHLY valuable, his book “The Biggest Secret” is a little too overwhelming for some people, not necessarily because the information is too hot to handle, but because at the same time that he gives people information which can cause fear, he takes away the very thing which gives many people freedom from fear, and that is their faith in and connection to God and/or Jesus.   Most of his information is excellent.  I recommend it, as long as this point is kept in mind.

David  Icke  has   become  a  highly  sought-after  lecturer, worldwide, and  it is  no wonder.  His books  in recent years have  covered  the   full  range  of  topics  concerning  the so-called "elite"  global controllers and their stranglehold on the masses.

His most recent book, titled “The Biggest Secret”, is his most daring work to date. To say that  it takes on even more than its  title  suggests,   is  still  quite  an  understatement.

On July  8, 1999,  I caught up with David,  by telephone, in London. While he was  recovering from a prolonged bout with a flu bug,  and we would  have been thankful  with just a short interview under  the  circumstances, I  think you  will agree with me  that he was  in fine form  during this conversation.

David hits  hard on  a wide  range of  topics, some of which will, surely, stretch  your beliefs and expand your thinking.  This is, literally,  a "fasten your seatbelts  and hold on to your  hat"  kind   of  conversation  which  captures  David's riveting speaking  style as best  that can be  done in print.

If you do not read this interview with an open mind, you will probably just  dismiss  the entire  thing.  But as  a careful reading of  The  Biggest Lie  [Secret]will  reveal, David has      definitely done his homework-as usual!

As David told me, he has  just done a month in Australia, New Zealand, Hong  Kong, and America.  He is now,  as I write, in South Africa for a  month, then back to America in September. He is confirmed in Seattle, Washington to speak at Washington State CTC from 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. on September 25; tickets for that event are available through Ticketmaster (206) 628-0888.  His schedule  for other  events may  be accessed  through his website  which  is:  { http://www/davidicke.com }.  His  very controversial video tape  with Illuminati mind-control victim Arizona Wilder,  is available  from Bookworld  and elsewhere, but for  your convenience The SPECTRUM  is also carrying this video Revelations of a Mother Goddess and his newest book The Biggest Secret ; see back  page for  ordering information. If you would like to  contact David for a speaking engagement or conference,  he may  be  reached  by calling  Royal  Adams at 602-657-6992  or  fax at  602-657-6994.  British  or European inquiries may be  made at Bridge of  Love ~ United Kingdom on 01983 566002.  [ ~ Bridge  of Love ~ Australia  - Phone +61 7 3209   7902   FREECALL  in   Australia   1800   099   902  ~]

With all of that said,  sit back and read the latest insights from a  researcher who  has dared  to probe  into the darkest corners and speak  out on some areas that, to-date, seemingly  no one, on  a global scale, has  been willing to touch. It is very appropriate that two of David's other books include: And The  Truth Shall  Set  You Free  and  The  Robot's Rebellion.      

We  are  in  a  time  when  personal  responsibility  is  the challenge  affecting us  all-big  time!  What if  each  of us simply  made a  resolution  to follow  the  three suggestions David makes  near the end of  his conversation? Sometimes the simplest ideas  to put  into words are the hardest to truly carry out.

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Martin: I'm talking to you at the seat of global power today, namely London. Not only are you located at the seat of power, but there  are many  horrific and  nasty things  taking place behind the  seemingly  respectable old  stone walls  of those       various places.

David Icke: Right, absolutely.

Martin: As  our readers  are very  well versed  on the Global Controllers generally,  let's cut to  the chase  with the bad  news first and go from there.  What is The Biggest Secret, as your new book is so appropriately titled?

David Icke: The  'biggest secret' that's  emerging is  that back in the ancient world, we  can debate when, but certainly you can pick it up around 5,000 B.C., a series of bloodlines emerged,  particularly  but not  exclusively-particularly,  really, the focus of  power  was  in  the  Near and  Middle East.

These bloodlines  became the leaders  and the  Royal lines of that ancient  Near  and Middle  Eastern area.  This bloodline would appear to  go back to an extra-terrestrial intervention which created hybrid bloodlines. This,  I think, is referred to in the  Old Testament which is,  of course, just an edited rewrite of more ancient  texts where it talks about the "sons of God"  who interbred with the  "daughters of men", creating the hybrid  line, the Nefilim/Nephilim.  When you  go back to the Hebrew, the "sons of  God" become the "sons of the gods". And so often  when you see the  translation into the English, the  King James  version  of  the Bible,  as God in  the Old Testament, it  actually is  translated from  the word meaning gods.

And these  bloodlines moved over  as time went  on and became the British and  European Aristocracy and Royal Families. The incessant interbreeding between these family lines is not due to snobbery,  but  their desire  to  hold a  specific genetic structure.

Thanks to-well,  let's go back a little.  The focus  in the ancient world  of these bloodlines appears  to be in Babylon, and eventually they moved their epicenter to Rome. And it was when they were in Rome, epicentering in Rome, that we had the Great Roman Empire.

This was a key point in the historical expansion of the power of these  bloodlines  across the  planet. Eventually,  one of their  number,  called William of Orange,  to  whom every surviving Royal Family  in Europe is related, was manipulated onto the  throne of England  in 1689, and he  was the one who signed the Charter that  created the Bank of England in 1694.

At that point, this group-call it the Illuminati, for want of a better  word-these bloodlines, in  other words, moved their epicenter  at  an operational  level,  because  it  has other levels all around the world, but at an operational level, the spider in the center  of the pyramid became London. And then, of  course, as  years  unfolded, came  this key  time  in the expansion of these  bloodlines, the Great British Empire, and as a result of that they were able to move into the Americas, Australia, Africa, and New Zealand.  They show up as far as China.

It was said that  the Sun never set on  the British Empire.  Well, when  you see  the size  of Britain,  compared with the world-when I was a kid it was a great mystery to me how these small islands you can hardly see on the globe actually had an empire that spanned  the world. But now  I do understand that it was  not the British  Empire at all, it  was the empire of these bloodlines,  that had  centered themselves  in Britain, which is a very different thing.

Now, what happened, it's increasingly becoming clear, is that these bloodlines  then took the  positions of  power in these countries of the British  Empire. But, there are two forms of power. There's overt power, dictatorship-you can see it, feel it, touch  it and  taste-and they  always have a finite lif because eventually, when people know they're in a dictatorship, in a prison, they'll rebel against it. The most effective form of control, and this is what happened when the so-called European Empires,  like the British Empire, started  to  roll-back, particularly in this century,  they replaced  overt in-your-face control with covert control.

And that is the ultimate control, because people do not rebel against not being free when they think they are. And so, what happened as these empires, as the British Empire, rolled-back on the surface, and  of course, "Oh, the great British Empire  is over, poor old  Britain has lost her power", they actually  left out  in those  countries the  bloodlines and  the secret society networks through  which they work and they've gone on  running those  countries, including not  least, in fact, most and  emphatically,  the  United  States,  ever  since it  was formed.

And when you look at the genealogy of American Presidents, it is utterly  astonishing in support of this.  There are about 260 million Americans,  at the moment. And  if you add up all those who have called themselves American since 1776, it will run into hundreds and hundreds of millions. Well, 42 of those hundreds of  millions have  actually become  President of the United States. You would think, on the law of averages alone, that those 42 would have some tremendous genetic diversity.

Well, they don't.  According to  Burke's Peerage, the bible of Aristocratic and  Royal  genealogy  based in  London,  every  American election since and including  George Washington, in 1789, has been won  by the  candidate with the  most European Royal  genes. 33 of  the 42  are  genetically related  to two  people: Charlemagne  (King), the most  famous monarch of what  we call France, and Alfred  the  Great, the  King  of  England.  They're  the two  countries, overwhelmingly,  France and Britain, out of which these bloodlines came in Europe.

Now, since The Biggest Secret  came out, and I told the story in there  of how  these bloodlines came  out of  the Near and Middle East,  how the  blueprint of  control by  religion was  formed in Babylon,  where their Trinity of Nimrod, Tammuz the Sun, and  Queen  Semiramis the  female,  there was  mirror in  terms of  the stories  of the  later Jesus  stories, and many other stories  in other cultures  that relate  to exactly the same stories using different heros, since I wrote in the book  that  the   Gospels   were  actually written by a Roman Aristocratic family called  the Pisos, Piso. Since I wrote in the book that  these stories were eventually taken and turned  into a  religion by, most notably,  the Roman Empire, Emperor       Constantine the Great, at  the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D., and, of  course, what came  out of that,  eventually, was the Roman   Church   which   became   the   Christian   religion.

Since I wrote in the book that one of the key bloodlines that I am  identifying is the Merovingian  bloodline that came out of the Near and Middle  East into France, and, of course, has been widely written about  in various books in the recent ten years or so, since I noted  that in the book that the British Royal  Family,   including  King   George  III,   were  these bloodlines, since all  of that, I have,  in the last ten days come  across  the   genealogy  of  the  George  Bush  family, including,  of   course,  George  W.  Bush,  who,  surprise,  surprise, is being pushed as the year-2000 President.

It only  turns out that the  Bush family and the Roosevelt family, who are of  the same line,  are genetically  related to Alexander the Great, who, I  think it's around 300 B.C., plundered this  very area-I'm  talking about Egypt, what  we call now Israel, down  to Babylon  and  across  to India-this  whole  area I'm talking about,  the Bush family and  the Roosevelt family are related to  him, genetically. 

They are  related to  the Piso family, the  Roman aristocratic  family who  wrote the Gospel stories originally.   They're genetically related to Constantine  the  Great, the  Roman  Emperor  who took those stories and turned it into the Christian religion, in effect, which makes the  people who wrote the  stories and the person  who created the religion, the same bloodline.

They're  genetically  related to  Dagobert,  one  of  the key  Merovingian line.  Dagobert was  said to  be one  of the last  surviving Merovingian line,  but that's not correct. The Bush family is  also genetically  related to  George III,  who was  around when  people  like Benjamin  Franklin were  giving the American people  the impression  they were  going to freedom, when actually  they were going to  covert control by Britain,  which they've had ever since.

So when  you look-and this  is just a  few headlines from the Bush line-when you  look at the Bush  line alone it supports, emphatically, these bloodlines  that came out of that ancient Near and Middle Eastern area and have been brought through to be in positions of power, not least today. It is no accident,  Rick, that George W. Bush, with that background, genetically, is the one they're bringing through and throwing the money at  to become president in the year 2000, which is a key year for them.

So, in  effect, what I'm saying is that my research is very strongly pointing to  the fact that the extraterrestrials are not coming,  they're  not going  to invade,  they've actually been controlling this  planet, increasingly, for thousands of years. And  when I  say extraterrestrials,  I don't  mean all extraterrestrials, I  mean I'm talking  about this particular group.  And  it seems  to  me  that  the  situation  is this,  that-oh, the House  of Windsor, by the  way, are one of these bloodlines, big-time, and they know it-they're related to the Bushs, not surprisingly.

Anyway, it seems that one of the key  reasons that  they are trying to  hold this genetic structure  is  that this  planet  is actually controlled  not  from the  physical level, which  is just one level  of it, but actually  from what people  call the lower astral,  or I call the lower fourth  dimension.  It  is  the  lower cess-pit  end of  the dimension closest to this one. And, it seems that, talking to  people who  have worked on  the inside with  these people and  taken part  in their  rituals-indeed, in  one case, conducted  them-these lower fourth-dimensional  entities who, of course,  the satanic rituals  interact with-the legendary realm of the  folklore  demons  and  all  this  stuff-that  somehow,  these  particular genetic  lines, in  their most  pure form,  have a  much greater vibrational  reasonance and vibrational sympathy  with the  lower fourth dimension, and  therefore, can be much  more easily-what  we would  call-possessed and taken over by these lower fourth-dimensional entities, which kind of means that if you can put these particular bloodlines, the physical body, if  you like, in  a position of  power, you're actually  putting   these   lower   fourth-dimensional  entities   into positions  of power,  because they're  working  through these  particular lines.

And, again  and again,  when you  get into  the genealogy, my goodness me, that takes some time and sweat, you hit the same genetic lines  when you're looking at  people in positions of power. It  seems  to me  that these  lower fourth-dimensional entities have actually  been working through what we call the Illuminati to  actually  control the  planet. And,  while all this  was  unfolding, I  started  getting  some  very bizarre stories told to me.

Martin: I bet.

David Icke: And the thing about my life, Rick, in the last 10 years or so, consciously  walking this journey-I now realize that I was unconsciously doing it  all of my life-is that suddenly a subject  heading  will  come  into  my  life,  and once  it's  appeared,  I'm meeting  people  literally from  all  over the  world, because  I've  been in  21 countries  in the  last two years now,  and been back  to quite a  few of  them, so I can start to see,  as a result of  traveling, these common themes that are coming up all over the world.

And one theme that came  up last year, May  '98, it had been  around a  little bit but  I put it on  the back burner. There wasn't enough evidence to talk about it, really. And that was that  people  had seen  people  in  positions  of  power, not  exclusively so, but  overwhelmingly so, turn into a reptilian  form and then go back to  human. And, in a period of 15 days,  in May 1998,  I met 12 separate  people in different parts of America   from  different  walks  of   life  and different  backgrounds, in  my travels,  who told  me the  same story. I thought, "What in the hell is going on here?!"

When I  came back to  England, the sequence  continued. I was  asked by a couple of people, who were members of the House of  Lords, in  London, to  go and  talk to  them at  the House of  Lords about  the manipulation,  which they  also realized was going on.  And I chatted with them for a while, and there was a lady at the meeting who kept saying some very interesting things about Diana, you know, the Princess of Wales.  And after the meeting, I said "Look, hey, we gotta talk."

She said, "We have." And we went off and chatted.

I said, "Where did you get this information about Diana?"

She said, "My best friend was her closest confidant on things she couldn't talk about to anyone else for nine years." Now, this lady has actually appeared in the press from time-to-time as being a close friend of Diana. Anyway, she said, "I think this lady might talk to you. She's never talked to anyone else."

So, I went to see her and her name was Christine Fitzgerald.   She starts telling me about the connection, all of the treatment of Diana by the Windsors, which was utterly, utterly outrageous. I haven't talked to this lady Christine Fitzgerald about these bizarre stories I'm being told by people around the world. Then, as the conversation unfolded, she said, "Oh, do you know what Diana's nickname for the Windsors was?"

I said, "No, go on."

She said, "The lizards or the reptiles." And she said, "She used to say, in all seriousness, 'They are NOT human!'"

Christine Fitzgerald went on to tell me: "You know, the Windsors are a reptilian line, they're not human." And that "the British Royal Family, and its inter-linking bloodlines, are actually reptilian, they come from a reptilian extraterrestrial race."

And I'm thinking, "Bloody hell, not another one!"

And I came back here-about an hour and a half from London-my  home is in England. I knew of a guy called Ted Heath, who was  Prime Minister of Britain from '70-'74, and I knew that he was involved in some serious horrendous things, like sacrificing children, and all this stuff, because of people who had seen it. And, a lady I knew, who had contacted me,  wanted to tell me about her experiences with Ted Heath, so I  went to see her, not to talk about shape-shifting reptilians,  but to talk about Ted Heath and satanic ritual involving the elite of Britain.

And, again, but just as a quick incidental-when you follow these bloodlines from the ancient world to the present day, this satanic ritual, human sacrifice and blood ritual, even using the same deities in the rituals, is a common and constant, unchanging theme. So, it would be very surprising if the elite today weren't into this, because these bloodlines always have been, just like Bush is into it and  people like that. Anyway, I went to see this lady and she told me about her experiences with Heath and stuff.

In a place called Burnham Beeches, which is an area of  forested land notorious for satanic ritual, among people who have studied these things, it just so happens that, although Burnham Beeches is on the outskirts of London, not far from  Heathrow Airport, the place is actually owned by the City of  London, the financial district which is the epicenter of this control.

I just finished me cup o' tea-you know how you do in  her house-and I was just making my way to leave, after she  told me this stuff, and I said to her, just to throw away a line as I left, I said, "You know, I'm having some bizare things happening to me at the moment." I said, "I keep meeting people who tell me that they've seen people shape-shift into bloody reptiles."

And, honestly, she grabbed her chest and she was gasping for breath like she was having a seizure.

"Oh, my God," she said, "I thought it was only me."

And she went on to tell me that she wasn't going to say that to me  because she thought that even I would find that unbelievable.  She said, "All that stuff I've told you about Heath and seeing him in the satanic rituals and all that stuff," she said, "I wasn't going to tell you what I also saw. He  shape-shifted into a reptilian, during the ritual. What  staggered me," she said, "is that none of the other participants were at all phased by it, as if it was a natural thing that always kind of happened."

This has gone on, Rick, to the present day. I was in Vancouver, speaking, and I met about 4 or 5 people who told me the same story, including a business woman, who is a real feet-on-the-ground, you know, power-dressing kind of 5,000 clients business woman. And she said she had this  relationship with a guy who was Portuguese, and he just turned into a reptile in front of her.

I had just spoken at a financial conference about the  manipulation of the world in the Bahamas, and two people there told me the same story. One told me how she was in a religious cult, and on one occasion, the cult leader changed  into a reptile in front of her face.

And she said, what was most amazing is that he focused on her, and the others couldn't see it, but she could, and she said she just went out of the room and started driving and never stopped,  really.

You know, this is now hundreds and hundreds of people who I've met from around the world, from many walks of life-a couple of television presenters who interviewed this guy live and, when they went back in the green room one said, "I had a very strange experience during that interview. The guy's face turned into a bloody reptile."

"Oh, my God," said the other, "I saw his hands turn into a reptilian."

And so this is-then you look, of course, at the ancient  world, and you start to see constant references to serpents and the serpent race. Not that all references are literal-I mean, there's the serpent symbolism that's used massively-but when you get, like, the Nagas, the gods of the ancient Hindu religion, who were said to be able to take human OR reptilian  form.

And then, while this is going on, Rick, I thought, "I'm sure Cathy O'Brien mentioned bloody reptiles in her candid and shocking book, with Mark Phillips, called Trance-formation Of America."

Martin: Yes.

David Icke: I got a copy of that, started flipping through the index, looking for reptiles, thinking, "My life is getting more bizarre by the minute."

Martin: (Laughter)

David Icke: And, I'm going through the references in the book and, of course, Cathy talks in the book about being with George Bush and that George Bush-and she obviously took this to be part of the mind control, she took it to be a holographic image, it was part of the mind control-but when you put this other evidence together, well, hold on a minute.

She talks about being with George Bush, and him saying that they were an extraterrestrial race that came from a "far off space place" who'd taken over the world, and no one realized it because they look human. But, she said, he changed in  front of her into a reptile. She talked about being with the  Bennett brothers, these politicians, political figures in  America, and how they put her through a mind-control program  in which they said they came from another dimension and they  were inter-dimensional beings.

And she had an experience during that time of seeing a White House cocktail party where everyone turned into bloody reptiles. And then she talks in the book about being with Miguel De La Madrid, in Mexico, who was, of course, President during the Bush years, and how he told her, she said in the  book, the story of the Iguana race. And, Miguel De La Madrid  said that an extraterrestrial reptilian race had interbred  with the ancient Mexican people because they needed to create bloodlines or bodies they could work through, and these particular bloodlines could take either human or reptilian  form. She says in the book that he actually shape-shifted, not totally, but facially, into a reptilian form when she was       with him.

Now, when you start putting all of this together, Rick-I have simple philosophy-I follow information, and I'll go where it takes me. If you come from, anyone comes from, any belief or background, whether it be religious, political, or whatever, and they are rigid with it, then they're never going to uncover what's going on because that belief, that  rigid belief, will start to edit information when it comes  toward you, and you start editing-out information that's taking you away and challenging your original belief-system.

I haven't got any of that stuff, fortunately, and so I just  follow information, and it's taken me into these areas.    Interestingly, too-and I'm just going back there, so I'm going to do some more on this-when I was in South Africa,  about February last year, I met a Zulu shaman, a famous Zulu shaman in South Africa. I met with him for about five hours about various things.

He knew about the elite and the manipulation and the extraterrestrial connection, and all this stuff. He's in his 70s now, I mean, he's lived a long time in Africa, and is a  very great expert on African legend and stories and  experience. And he told me, during this chat, that he got a call in March of 1997-this is before the August when Diana died-and this caller said that she was the Princess of Wales and wanted to talk to him. 

Now, he didn't believe this, at first, and he certainly didn't believe it when she said to him that she was calling him from what, he termed, a supermarket phone. "Princesses don't call from supermarket phones," he thought.

Well, when I talked to Christine Fitzgerald about two months later, her confidant, she said, "That makes absolute sense, because Diana knew that her phones at Kensington Palace were tapped, and when she wanted a clean line, she used to go into a local department store," to what this shaman would have  been a supermarket, "to use the public phone to get a clean line."

This shaman told me-and he later realized they had a connection, one of his students was a relative of Diana-and,  interestingly, this shaman talks a lot about extraterrestrial  connections with humanity and his own extraterrestrial  experiences, of which he has had some astonishing ones.   

Anyway, she said to him that she wanted to talk to him  because she had something to reveal about the Windsors that  would shake the world and she wanted advice in how best to do it. (Note from Stephanie Relfe:  Is this why they murdered her?). And, talking to a lady who I met after Christine Fitzgerald, a lady called Arizona Wilder, who claims to have conducted rituals for the British Royal Family, that Diana  knew that they were actually shape-shifting reptilians who shape-shifted during the rituals and, I said to this shaman,  "What was it she wanted to reveal about the Windsors?" And he said, "I can't tell you, it's just too terrible. I don't want to get into any more trouble."

So, I said I knew that Diana knew that the Windsors were involved in the global drug-running operation and she knew that they were involved in that. And he just shook his head.

He said, "Oh, no." He said, "It was much worse than that."

And I'm going back there soon, so I'm going to have another go at finding exactly what it was.

But this Arizona Wilder lady, again, came on the scene after Christine Fitzgerald. I found her in Los Angeles, or near Los Angeles, and I went to see her, not to talk about shape-shifting reptilians, yet again, because I wasn't  talking about it at the time; I was just gathering information. I went to talk to her about the rituals she said  she conducted for the British Royal Family, and the Bushs,  the Kissingers, and people like that in America.

Because Arizona Wilder, even though she's got red hair today, is actually blond haired, with piercing blue eyes. And the blond-haired, blue-eyed thing is fundamentally involved in all of this stuff, and what have you. Anyway, that is why Project Monarch is overwhelmingly, if not exclusively, blond-haired, blue-eyed people.

I went to talk to her about the rituals that she says she conducted. So, we're getting into this stuff, and she's telling me about the rituals at Balmoral in which, you know, human sacrifice takes place in Scottland, the Queen's Palace in Scotland, and also at Glames Castle and the Castle of Darkness, as it's called, in Belgium, which Fritz Springmeier and Cisco Wheeler talk about in their book. And I had heard all of this from other sources, I mean, Christine Fitzgerald was talking about the stuff they got up to, but then, as the conversation unfolded, Arizona said to me: "But that's not the most bizarre thing that happened."

And I thought, "Well, how much more bizarre can you get, the Queen of England sacrificing children?" And, she said, when the blood started to flow, they shape-shifted into reptiles.

And, in their reptilian form, they're very, very different-I mean, like, the Queen Mother, this sounds funny, really-but the Queen Mother is an old frail 99-year-old, but that's the physical form in three-dimensional reality. But it's not the physical form of the reptilian that's working through her, according to these people.

And I got a call from a lady in America who is the head of Parents Against Ritual Abuse. And I was talking to her, again, not about shape-shifting reptilians, but about the ritual abuse of children in America, and she said during this conversation, "Do you know, about 12 of my clients have actually reported that, during the rituals, they've seen the participants turn into reptiles." And, she said, "I've always taken it to be that they're dressing up to confuse them."

But when you take all of this together, Rick, all this emerging information, and since I've gone public on it, obviously, in the book, you start to attract people who know they can talk to you, because, you know, the thing that keeps this quiet most of the time is that people who know things and have seen things think, "Well, who's going to believe me?"

And, interestingly-and this is a true story also, and it kind of sums up the way this has been unfolding-when The Biggest Secret was at the printers in January, I got a call in America from a guy, he was just a guy who read my other books, and he said, "Hey, you got a new book coming out?"

I said, "Yeah, it's at the printers now."

He said, "What's it about?"

I said, "Well, you'll have to read it because some of it is so bizarre, if I told you about it, well, you'd think this is crazy."

So anyway, we go on chatting about what you do and where you've been and all this stuff. So then, after about ten or fifteen minutes into this conversation, he says, "Hey, you're going to think I'm mad," he said, "but have you ever come across anyone who has seen people in positions of power, like Bush, Gorbachev, Kissinger, turn into reptiles?"

I thought, "Shit, not another!"

I said, "Well, why do you ask the question?"

He said, "Because I keep seeing this." He said, "When they come on the television, I keep seeing them turn into reptiles."

So, the story has gone on-interestingly, too! I can't remember the exact word now, but I was interviewed on a radio station by the guy who does reverse speech. Have you come across that?

Martin: Yes, I have.

David Icke: Well, he wanted to talk to me about some reverse speech they'd taken from a guy Ken Bacon-do you remember the guy who was the Pentagon spokesman, or White House spokesman-Pentagon spokesman, I think, during the Kosovo war, and they had done some reverse speech on him and said, "Do you know what this  means? We can't work it out."

And it was clear as day. He was making a statement about the war to the press, and in reverse it said something like, "We are the people of the snake and we"-something like, I can't remember the exact wording now, I've got it on tape in America, basically-"we are the people of the snake and we  look after our own" was basically the theme of what he said, clear as day, and I nearly dropped off the chair.

So,there is something in all of this which holds the key to understanding so much about how the world has been controlled, where this world is actually controlled from, and I would strongly suggest that what we are looking at with the       Kissingers and the Bushs and the Rockefellers and the Rothschilds and all these people, are actually the three-dimensional, physical expressions of a lower-fourth-dimensional consciousness and manipulation. And the physical Illuminati are merely the three-dimensional  expression of the fourth-dimensional control of planet Earth.

And, interestingly too, when you go back and back and back, and you follow how the White race came out of the Near and Middle East, with these bloodlines within them, and you pick up one of those White races called the Phoenicians-they actually worshipped a guy called, one of their dieties was called, St. George, in Cappadocia, who they said defeated the dragon. And because the Phoenicians actually went around 3,000 B.C. to Britain and took what we now call the British culture-which, indeed, in various forms has become the world       culture-St. George in Cappadocia (Cappadocia is in what we now call Turkey) became St. George of Britain.

And another deity that the Phoenicians worshipped and took to Britain was St. Michael, who, it was said, of course, threw the serpent into the abyss-or threw the serpent onto the Earth for the final battle and all this stuff. This battling-with-serpents stuff goes on and on.

The other thing that I'm connecting in The Biggest Secret-and more and more people are beginning to do this-is the connection between the Earth and Mars, because it seems to me that the cataclysms which destroyed so much of the Earth, which the geological record, as well as the ancient legends and accounts talk about, the massive cataclysms, probably one       that destroyed what became known as Atlantis and there were later ones, too, were the same cause of that cataclysm, some renegade or out-of-control celestial body of some kind  actually destroyed Mars. I'm just reading books about compilations of the evidence that's been gathered about Mars, and there is tremendous evidence that Mars was actually a planet with an atmosphere very much like the Earth's, in the very near past, certainly the last 20,000 years, even 10,000 years, possibly. And, I think there was a tremendous connection between a civilization on Mars and the Earth, and when this cataclysm destroyed Mars, the surviving "Martian" people, who could-well, I suggest, be what we call the White race today, genetically-actually came and settled here and re-emerged, eventually, as the Sumerian culture, the Egyptian culture, and those great civilizations of the ancient world.

Interestingly, the connections between their symbolism, their deities, their legends, and the planet Mars are absolutely extraordinary. So, there is something big-time to look at there.

And what Arizona Wilder has said, in that in her preparation and training to conduct the rituals, because she was obviously a Cathy O'Brien-type,       multiple-personality-created-robot to do these rituals, she said, what she was told by the insiders during her training was that the White race and this reptilian race have actually been at war with each other for a long, long time, not just on planet Earth. And that somehow the reptilians want more than anything the blond-haired, blue-eyed genetic stream because there's something in the blood that they want. 

She also suggests-I don't know if this is true, I'm just quoting her-that the desperate need to conduct rituals and drink human blood, particularly blond-haired, blue-eyed blood, is because there's something in there that they want, is actually part of their need to hold this human three-dimensional form, through which they can operate from the fourth dimension. And if they don't get this blood, then they genetically start to fall-apart, in terms of the three-dimensional, apparently, human form.

Whether that's true or whether it's not true, and obviously I don't know that, when you look at totally unconnected sources who talk about the involvement of the elite in these rituals,  and stuff like that, they say again and again, that some of the most famous people in American politics, business, banking, and Britain too, like the Royal Family, are actually addicted to blood-drinking, and particularly addicted to an adrenaline that enters the blood at the point of sacrifice.

And it's like a theme, like I say, which you can follow back with these bloodlines, right back to the ancient world. And when I talk to therapists around the world who work with satanically abused people, those who survived, trying to give them their minds back, they tell me that the deities their clients tell them are used in these rituals today are exactly the same deities that the Babylonians were using and the Cainites were using and the Phoenicians were using, right back in the ancient world.

So, The Biggest Secret for me, in summary, is that an extraterrestrial race has interbred with humanity, creating particular hybrid bloodlines which they can work through from this dimension very close to ours, and that as it expanded over the thousands and hundreds of years to the present day, they've managed to expand their power out of a power base in the Near and Middle East, other places too but particularly there, until today they are actually in control of the planet.

And it is the ultimate control because they're controlling the planet from another dimension, but most of humanity doesn't even think that there are other dimensions. And this suppression of knowledge about other dimensions, the suppression of knowledge of the nature of life, the nature of frequencies and vibrations, and the eternal nature of consciousness, for reasons that this Illuminati has created religions to suppress-indeed, make so off-limits for many thousands of years just talking about these things-is to suppress the very knowledge or even perception that there could be any other dimension or any other levels of life, which means that they can go on controlling humanity from levels of existence that most of humanity doesn't even accept exist. I mean, you can't get better forms of control than that.

Martin: Ok. A couple of questions come to mind from what you've just said. One, which is not a question that I would particularly ask, but I'm sure other readers might: Have you encountered any credibility issues since you have gotten into the reptilian subject?

And then, after you cover that: Obviously there is a Divine Hand overseeing the entire planetary transition. What would you say to those readers who despair over the apparent hopelessness at the hands of these elite controllers?

Icke: Right, well, yeah, that's a big question. First of all, let's answer the credibility thing. Let's make very clear where I'm coming from. First of all, I really do not give a shit what anyone thinks of me and what I do. What I care passionately about is trying to uncover what's going on so that it can be stopped and changed, and I care passionately about everyone having the right to hear all information and not just that which will lead us to a certain limited conclusion. I am completely emotionally detached from how people receive what I do, because if I wasn't, you'd just go crazy.

People have a right to believe whatever they want to believe, and that includes the right to dismiss whatever I say. I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with the suppression of the communication of information. So, how people receive it is completely up to them, and it's their absolute right to accept it, accept a bit of it, or just dismiss the lot. That's up to them. So, I don't have a problem with that, it's of no importance to me how people receive it. It's important to me that they have the right to have access to it.

On the other side of it, however, I would say this: I've spoken all around the world about this, and The Biggest Secret has now been out for a few months. I mean, you know, we're now into 30,000 print-runs on this book. I mean, it's extraordinary, the interest in it. And, what has staggered me is that I've actually stood up on public stages all over the  world and talked about this, and the reaction, while it has  been one of astonishment to start with, it actually makes sense to incredible numbers of people when they sit long enough to hear the evidence. Because I'm not standing up there and asserting this is what's going on, that's what's going on. I'm saying this is the information, this is what people are experiencing, look at the support of it in the ancient world. There is a case to answer here, something is going on.

So, the way it has been received has been staggering. What I find disappointing-it doesn't really matter to me, but I find disappointing because of it's effect-is the way that some conspiracy researchers, who are always saying that there's suppressed information and all this stuff, actually want to suppress the information I'm presenting that they don't like as well.

Martin: Right.

David Icke: It's extraordinary. I mean, people talk about freedom, Rick, and yet they don't understand what it is. So often, when I talk to people about freedom and they say, "Yeah want freedom." If you talk to them long enough, you find that they don't actually want freedom. They want the freedom to replace an imposition they don't like with an imposition they do!

You know, this is when you get the Christian Patriot Movement, of which I have great sympathy in the way that they are trying to expose some levels of the conspiracy, but you know, I don't see much of a difference between an imposed culture and imposed thought through the Illuminati being replaced by an imposed thought through "one nation under God". Because when you say, "Well, whose God are we talking about here?" Their's, of course, is the Christian version of God. That's no more freedom than anything else. So, I find it sad that, even though "divide and rule" is actually the foundation of all control by the few of the many, throughout human history, without it you couldn't do it, that conspiracy       researchers and people in some of the religions still fall for this scam of divide and rule.

So, actually, some of the most fierce abuse that I've had since the book came out has not been from the public, actually, it's been from some other conspiracy researchers  who can't get their head around anything beyond the physical. You know, be my guest. But surely whether we agree with each other or not, what a boring world if we did agree with everything we all said. Surely if we're going to get to the heart of this, we need to focus on what we're all agreed on, which is the need to expose that this world is controlled.

Now, I might have a certain view, based on the information that I've uncovered, of who is controlling it and all that stuff, but let's say, "Well, I don't agree with you on that, I can't get my head around that, I haven't done that research anyway, so I don't know." But let's agree on what we agree on, and let's go together, united, behind the desire for freedom in the world. But instead of that, once somebody writes anything or says anything that's different, to even the conspiracy norm, because that norm has now started to emerge, another bloody prison, then other conspiracy  researchers start laying-into and abusing each other. I mean, some of the stuff that goes around on the Internet with conspiracy people abusing each other, I mean, I reach for the sick-bag. I mean, the statement that "a few can't control the world" is a piece of cake to knock down.

But the third point that you make is a very, very important one because this is a whole area of research and  understanding which I'm now moving deeper and deeper into. We are multi-dimensional beings. We have part of our consciousness working directly through the physical form, in  three-dimensional embodiment, in three-dimensional awareness, but we exist on all other dimensions. In the end, we are everything. You know, everyone is the same energy consciousness, we are everything in the end.

There's only an "I", not even a "we", when you get to the highest level of all this. But, I've actually talked about this in bits and pieces in previous books, but I'm beginning to understand this more and more, now.

I suggested in And The Truth Shall Set You Free that we could well be living inside a vibrational prison, that somehow a vibrational net had been thrown around this third dimension which made it very, very difficult for three-dimensional embodied consciousness-if you like, the consciousness that's looking through the eyes and hearing through the ears-to connect with its multi-dimensional self.

And it seems to me that this lower fourth-dimensional level, that this elite-controllers group works on, and I want to emphasize this, Rick, very, very strongly-when I talk about reptilians, I am not talking about all reptilians. Just as  when we talk about the Illuminati, we're not talking about people in physical form. I'm talking about a particular group. I'm sure the reptilian form is a massive constant across great chunks of this galaxy and beyond, and I'm certainly not saying that anyone in reptilian form-any time anyone sees anyone in reptilian form, and there are a lot of people who do-and say, "I didn't get bad vibes from them."

Quite right, because we're not talking about ALL reptilians, we're talking a group that appears to take a reptilian form because that's how people keep seeing these people in power.

So, I would emphasize that very strongly because we don't want to get into this "good guys/bad guys" crap or we lose the plot again. The truth is never black or white; it's always a shade a gray, it seems to me.

What I'm beginning to more and more understand is that this lower fourth-dimensional level that this group operates from, this "Illuminati consciousness"-we'll put it like that-is the frequency range that vibrates to the emotions of fear and the off-shoots of fear, like guilt, resentment, aggression, all these things. And, therefore, the more that events can be created on the Earth which generate-my goodness me, they do by the minute-the emotions of fear, guilt, resentment, etc., within the human form, we are actually turned into generators of energy for that lower fourth-dimensional frequency range, if you follow me.

Because every time we feel emotion, the emotion of fear, our thought-emotional patterns are resonating energy around us and within us to that frequency of fear, which appears to relate very strongly to this lower fourth-dimensional level.

Now, where experiments have been done-I think the Institutef HeartMath in America has done a lot of this; it's got an Internet site, it's very interesting-they've done experiments measuring the frequency of various emotions, and they've shown that the frequency of fear is very low, slow. And when we're feeling fear, it is actually reasonating our energy very slowly. When we feel the emotion of what we call love, in it's truest sense, that is a very fast frequency which actually reasonates our energy very quickly. It's like waves going through and resonating the energy, which is just neutral. I mean, thought reasonates the energy. Do you want it fast? Do you want it slow? What were you thinking? What were you feeling?

So the more-this is vital to understanding this on a higher level, I would suggest-the more that humanity lives it's life in fear and the off-shoot emotions that come from fear, the slower the vibrational reasonance of consciousness working directly through the physical form. If the highest expression of ourselves, beyond this lower fourth-dimensional "cess-pit" vibration, as I call it, is operating at a higher wavelength than fear, and ultimately at the wavelength of love, what I would suggest is the highest wavelength of all-just like Radio America cannot sync with Radio Philadelphia because they are on different wavelengths-the wavelength of fear cannot sync with the higher wavelengths of love and other states of being.

So, in essence, as long as humanity can-in physical embodiment, that level of our consciousness-be kept and immersed in the emotion of fear, we actually vibrationally disconnect and can do nothing else, can do nothing other than disconnect from the highest expressions of who we are. We can't do anything other than that.

So, coming to the question, Rick, and it's a very important one, "How do we get out of here?" and "Where are the good guys?"-I keep hearing, "Where are the people coming to help us?"

Well, those of an emotional-mental state of being that wish to set-not in embodiment, I mean other-dimensional beings-who are of an intent to set the planet free, they are of a level of vibrational reasonance, as a result of that state of  being, in which they cannot connect with consciousness that is in a state of fear. It simply cannot happen because there is a vibrational gap between the two. This is the vital point I would suggest, anyway.

It's not that those of higher-dimensional consciousness who wish to set us free have to connect with us; it's that we, in fear, have need to connect with them. And the only way of doing that is through breaking out of fear; it's breaking out of the three-dimensional illusion, the movie screen, the holographic kind of virtual reality game that we're looking at when we open our eyes, and getting into the wavelength of  love, in it's true sense.

Because when we start to vibrate as a result of that state of being, to the energy of love, and our intent is freedom for all, not just ourselves, freedom in its true sense-freedom for you to say what I don't agree with, freedom for you to live your life-style in a way that I wouldn't live mine-that level of true freedom, that I will stand for your freedom to say something that I disagree with as much as I'll stand for mine to say what I think-when you hit that level, then your state of being starts to vibrate faster and faster, and starts to reach through this vibrational prison of  low-vibrational emotion, fear overwhelmingly, and reconnect with the higher dimensions of ourselves; we start to become whole again.

Then we become lights or beacons that can bring this  higher-dimensional knowledge/consciousness/understanding into embodiment and start to become like broadcast transmitters of it, which starts to reasonate and change the energy field that we're living in, and starts to break-up this fear-based energy field that we've been living in all this time-and have been manipulated to add to every time we think and feel fear.

So, again, it's about responsibility BY ME. It's not about saying, "Come and save us!" It's about saying, "How do we connect with those who can guide us out of this abyss?"

What if this abyss is actually a lower vibrational energy field caused by the overwhelmingly dominating fear emotion on planet Earth. We have actually feared ourselves into a low vibrational state, which has put us into a vibrational prison controlled from this lower fourth dimension, which is expert at manipulating fear because that is the vibration of it's being.

And if we could just turn that around and start resonating-by our own actions and our own thoughts and our own state of  being-to the emotion of love, which is not "I love you       darling because I saw you in the disco." Love is the ultimate power because it will speak it's truth and walk it's talk and do what it believes to be right, no matter what the consequences to itself. That's the kind of love I'm talking about.

Because love has no fear-the emotion that actually takes our  power away-so love without fear must be the ultimate power.

If we can get into that state, we start to reconnect with those levels. So we say, "Where are they?" Well, they're sitting around waiting for us to connect with them, but WE have to make the connection. Otherwise these other higher dimensions, that are seeking to help us and of which we are a part, would have to come into the wavelength of fear to connect with us-which would actually defeat the object of the whole thing.

Martin: You continually use the term "problem, reaction, solution". For those readers who are not aware what that is, would you explain?

David Icke: It's the most powerful mass-manipulation technique that has been used over thousands of years to advance this agenda to central, globalized control of all institutions of our lives. Kosovo, Bosnia, all of these different manipulated wars and problems-the Oklahoma City bombing, people going crazy with guns around the world, in schools and stuff, these are classic expressions of this.

If you want to introduce something like gun control, I think on gun control we got manipulated into the wrong debate. Whether guns are good, or whether guns are bad is actually a debate worth having, but it's not the crucial debate at this moment because what's happened by pulling us into this debate of "are guns good or are guns bad?" is that it has actually diverted people from the debate which we should actually be having in light of these events-which is why we have this pattern all over the world.

Because I travel a lot, I tell you, it's happening everywhere, people going crazy with guns, shooting people in the streets or schools, and then immediately legislation being proposed to take guns out of circulation. People should remember that gun laws were introduced in Germany just before Hitler started filling concentration camps.

I don't have guns. I wouldn't use guns. I'm not into guns. I don't see the point in meeting violence with violence because you get twice the violence. But we need to get street wise.   Some people would use guns, and on the face of it, it will be easier to take over an unarmed population than an armed population, on the face of it. That's not actually true, but on the face of it that appears to be true. And, therefore, what better than taking guns out of circulation before you've had your final coup, if you like. So, "problem, reaction, solution" overcomes the situation in which, if you introduced what you want to introduce, openly, then you know that it would be so unpopular that you would get tremendous resistance to it.

For instance, if you wanted to give more power to the police,  more power to the military, more power to stop and search,  more power to go into your homes without permission, etc., and you did that openly without any of this other incentive-manipulation, there'd be tremendous resistance from people who say, "This is a global, fascist state!" or "This is a fascist country! You mustn't do this; we're not having it!"

So "problem, reaction, solution" overcomes this. It's a brilliant technique, very simple, and it means that not only do you avoid such opposition, you actually manipulate people who would normally oppose what you want, to see it as the only solution to the problems that have been created and demand you introduce it.

So, in Stage One, you create a problem. You make sure, however, someone else is blamed for it-a Timothy McVeigh, a Lee Harvey Oswald, President Milosevic, and all this stuff-you create a problem.

You could create a war, as in Bosnia or Kosovo, you could create a "terrorist" bombing, a government collapse, an economic collapse, or whatever, a run on Wall Street, anything.

You then get your problem, which you've covertly created, to be reported through your media in the way you want the people to perceive it.

So, you report the Oklahoma City bombing as if it was due to a couple of guys in a barn somewhere who produced this fuel-fertilizer device which, of course, independent bomb experts have said couldn't possibly have caused that damage in the building.

You then glean, as a result of this, the demand that "something must be done!" "What are they going to do about it?" "We can't have this; do something!"

And so you've now had Stage One-create the problem.

And you've also, at this point, had Stage Two-the public reaction: "Do something!"

That allows you to play out the sting operation, called Stage Three, which is offering the "solutions" you wanted to impose in the first place, to the problems you have yourself created.

So, if you take the Oklahoma City bombing for instance,  within 24 hours of the event at the James P. Murrah federal building on April 19, 1995, you had Bill Clinton calling for an easing of restrictions on the military's involvement in domestic law enforcement.

The Anti-Terrorism Bill, that went through Congress on the nod and took away basic freedoms in America, went through purely and totally because of the Oklahoma City bombing and as a reaction-solution to that problem.

The more deeply you look into these events which are blamed on other people, the more clear it becomes that the people who proposed the legislation, afterwards, are the people who created the problem in the first place. And this is going on all the time.

We've just seen a massive example of this. I've been writing in my books, and many other people have been too, that NATO is designed to become the world police force, in some form, maybe not even called NATO when it reaches that point, but certainly NATO is the vehicle through which the global police force is being orchestrated.

In Bosnia, the First Stage of this, you had the UN peacekeeping operation as the status quo at the start of it.   But that was massively exposed, on purpose, in a co-ordinated way as being next to useless. At the same time, horrific pictures were pouring through our television screens night after night, of horrors in Bosnia. This, of course, led to calls-as a result of this problem "something must be done!"

And the solution was a 60,000-strong world army, under NATO control, that took over in Bosnia. And, as I've shown in my books and talks, every major peace negotiator appointed by the UN or the European Union to end the war in Bosnia-but no, they didn't, of course-was a member of the Bilderberg Group, the Trilateral Commission, and the Council on Foreign Relations, sometimes all three.

Then, as a result of Bosnia, the status quo was changed from reacting to these events with a UN peacekeeping operation, to reacting to them with NATO. So when they play Stage Two of this game, and that's all it is, this is not the end of it, Kosovo-there was no talk of UN peacekeeping operations-straight away, the status quo was NATO reacting to Kosovo. And if people only looked at it, it's just a mirror of Bosnia because there were no pictures.

I'm not saying Milosevic is a nice man, but I want to know  who's actually controlling him, and who's controlling the Kosovo Liberation Army, etc., and all these various groups in this conflict. And I'm absolutely in no doubt that if you did the research, you'd find that the people who control NATO are the same people controlling Milosevic, the same people controlling the Kosovo Liberation Army, etc., because you  need to control different sides in a game to insure certainty that the outcome is the one that you want it to be.

It was interesting that one of Milosevic's advisors during the Bosnian conflict was one of the key advisers, a few years earlier, to Margaret Thatcher-just a coincidence, nothing to worry about.

So we have these horrendous pictures coming out of Kosovo of these refugees pouring across the border and people forget that those pictures only started after the NATO bombing. And the NATO bombing actually massively, massively expanded the problem while claiming to be the solution. And what you have now, of course, is what they wanted all along,  which is ground troops in Kosovo, and now they've got control of Kosovo and that whole area.

We're going to see Stage Two. I would say to people: watch the Chinese hierarchy very carefully because people who I trust, indeed, people who have been working on the inside for many years, tell me again and again, there's a China card waiting to be played as part of the process of creating a conflict big enough to turn, in one conflict, NATO into a  world army to stop any more conflicts of this kind.

When you have the millennium mentality building up of "Come  on, we've come to the end of a millennium. Look at the horrors of this millennium; let's start again", you have a global mentality that is very open to change, and there's  nothing wrong with that except that if you control the forces of communication to the global mass-mind, you can control and manipulate what is perceived to be positive change, when  actually it is only change that relates to the agenda that you want to introduce.

I actually wrote in The Biggest Secret about keeping an eye on China and the China card, and the next thing I know they've bombed the Chinese Embassy. Not only that, I think it  was Time magazine, about three weeks ago or so, did a virtual whole edition demonizing China as the new monster and danger to the world. So I think we're going to see something like that unfold, and it will all be part of this recurring daily technique which happens in the local area, in the states, in the country, and in the world, of creating problems and offering the solutions to the problems.

It is the key technique. If people would only get street-wise to this, they would start to see presidential announcements and terrorist bombs and wars in a very, very different light.

I would just end the answer by saying this: The key question to ask in this situation, I would suggest, is: Who benefits?  Who benefits from this Oklahoma City bombing? Who benefits from the wars? And who benefits from me believing the version of these events that I'm being asked to accept? And, again and again, when you ask that question of who benefits, the answer is, invariably, anyone who wants to further central power.

Martin: What is "The Agenda" that you refer to in your new book?

David Icke: When you're getting into the lower fourth dimension and this level of it, I'm still trying to understand more and more clearly what the overall agenda is. It seems that, somehow, this lower fourth-dimensional consciousness, entities, whatever you want to call them, have actually caught themselves in a prison. They're in the lower fourth dimension because they are resonating to that frequency because of their state of being. They're into control, they're into manipulation of fear, and anyone who manipulates fear is, themselves, entrapped in fear. And as a result of that, they cannot get out of that frequency range by going upwards, because you can only do that by changing your mental  and emotional state which leads to your vibrational frequency increasing, which allows you to gravitate to higher levels.

It could well be-and I'm certainly being led in this direction at the moment-that they are trying to get out of that lower fourth dimension, or expand out of it, by coming into the third dimension and working and controlling three dimensionally. Certainly, even if you only take a three-dimensional level, the agenda is for these bloodlines, which compared-this is the point, Rick-compared with the global population, are not large in number. They've expanded out of the Near and Middle East, particularly, but other places, too. And by this manipulation of always being at the top of the pyramids-the pyramids of banking, the pyramids of politics, the pyramids of business, the pyramids of medicine, and all this stuff-they have created a situation in which they sit atop these compartmentalized pyramids and get the vast majority of humanity to advance their agenda without  most of them even realizing there is an agenda being advanced.

This is the only way it could be done. This is why divide and rule is vital.

This is why the human herd, which, unfortunately, we've allowed ourselves to become, actually polices itself by making it a crime to be different. Anyone who expresses a different view, anyone who expresses a different lifestyle, most of the rest of the herd jump on them and say "You can't do that" and make life difficult for them, ridicule them, condemn them or whatever.

So what these bloodlines have done, sitting atop these pyramidal peaks, is actually to have manipulated the mass of the pyramid to fight itself, to war itself, to police itself-hence, divide and rule. It seems that they have had an agenda, which because it's focus is the lower fourth dimension, it's had a very different version of time to us-it can see down the three-dimensional timeline much further than we can-and it has actually had a long-term agenda, leading to       the time we're going into now, to actually have global control through these global institutions of world government, world central banking, world currency, world army, world centralization of all things.

But, of course, if there's only a few of you and you need to control a large number of people, then it is absolutely vital that you centralize power. There are just too many areas of power and thought, and areas where people are making their own decisions about their own lives.

You just can't control that without organization. You have to centralize it. And the more you centralize it, the more power those few have over the masses, which is why global centralization of power (and the institutions) is what they've been working through all this time. And if you look at the incessant movement over these thousands of years, I'm talking about-it was slow to start with, and it just got faster and faster and faster as they've gotten control of more and more things.

Thousands of years ago there was, to a certain extent, diversity, because people were all over the world in different cultures that were-through distance and transportation reasons and other things, apart from the elite-I would suggest, disconnected from each other. And then, the more that time has moved on, the more these cultures have been able to be connected by the emergence of technology, etc., the more it's been possible to control the world centrally. And they've now reached the point, because of the technology and the computer systems that exist today, where they can actually control everything from a central point. And that's what they've been aiming toward all this time.

So, in Europe now, where I'm sitting, we have the European Union, where a few bureaucrats in Brussels are dictating the legislation to, basically, the whole of Western Europe now.       The European Union laws overpower national laws. If a national law is at odds with European Union law, then the national law has to go. That's where we're at here in Europe now.

We have a single currency, which is being expanded to be the single currency of the whole of Europe. We have a Central Bank in Frankfurt, where Hitler was going to put his had he won the war. And we have a situation in which the centralization of power in Europe has turned into, literally, a fascist state. The fasces, the symbol in the Roman Empire,  from which we get the word fascist, is actually a bundle of  rods tied very tightly together around an axe with an axe head projecting at the top. In other words, you tie together individual expressions and you rule them from the top with one law, one source of control. Well, the fasces symbol is actually-you actually cannot describe the European Union more simply and profoundly than with that symbol-it is a fascist state we have in Europe.

I was reading only the other day, I think it was the Miami  Herald or something like that, when I was over in the Bahamas area, that they've now said that they want a "Free Trade" area-which, of course, is what the European Union came out of-from the tip of South America to the tip of North America, by the year 2005.

I just spent a lot of time in Canada recently and they are artificially depressing the value of the Canadian dollar so that when they offer-this is already happening in Canada, Rick, at a legislative level-when they offer Canadians the opportunity to take the American dollar as their currency, then the Canadians will, overwhelmingly, jump at it because the value of that currency is much higher than the Canadian currency. So this is the manipulation going on now because  they want the American dollar to be the currency of the whole of the Americas.

Both George Bush and Bill Clinton-who are supposed to be opponents, but of course aren't-have both called for NAFTA to go from the tip of North America to the tip of South America, and that's the stage before they turn the whole of the American continent into their version of the European Union, which we already have here, in which a few bureaucrats at a central point would dictate the laws for the whole of the Americas. And that, the European Union, the American Union, they want, and something called the Pacific Union, which is      being evolved out of a free-trade area called APEC Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation], that's the next level of control below the world government that they want. And under that will come nations and regions that will have no power at all.

Interestingly, when I was in Australia, literally a few weeks ago, talking, the big story was a sales tax that was being introduced to increase basic things like the price of food in Australia. And, of course, Australia is not a big population, I mean, it should be a self-contained unit that would actually not be at the mercy of the world's system-but it is, because that's the way it's structured. And when the politicians in government were asked, "Why on Earth do we have to have this tax?" the reply was, "We cannot act within a trading area" what's the word, "a trading group, without this tax." In other words, the tax is part of the submission and submergence of Australia into the APEC free trade area, which is exactly what is happening in Europe, and is rapidly happening in the Americas-and that is, basically, "The Agenda".

But the key to The Agenda, also, is to introduce the microchip into the population. And, again, all over the world these microchips are just waiting until we have been properly manipulated into seeing them as a good idea:

"Get your kids microchipped at birth."

"Well, you'll never get mugged for your credit cards or your cash anymore."

"Have a little microchip with all of your financial details."

"Oh, hey, what a great idea to have all of your medical records on a little microchip, because then, if you have an accident or anything, then doctors have access to your medical records just by reading the chip."

All of these things around the world, I have seen as part of the process of preparing us, as they've done by using microchips in domestic animals, to be microchipped.

Interesting story, Rick, this, I was approached about a year ago-I think I've told you this before-through a third party to meet a guy who's been working for the CIA as a scientist for a long, long time-most of his working life; he's a genius in his particular area. And he jointed the CIA because he thought he was serving his country, as many people do-just because you're working for the CIA doesn't mean you're part of this.

And he said that eventually he started to realize that they  were using his genius for anything but positive reasons. They wanted his genius for very, very malevolent reasons. And he started to understand that there was this agenda that was unfolding behind the scenes that people didn't see.

When he started rebelling against the way that his work was being used, he said he woke up one morning and he had missing time. He remembers leaving his home, but then it’s all a blank. And then the next thing he remembers is waking up in a type of medical room. When he got his faculties back, he realized that he had a see-through sache, as we call them in England-a plastic see-through pouch-thing-they call them "patches", apparently, in the trade.

It was on his chest and in this patch was a yellow-gold liquid. He opened his shirt, as he's telling me this story, and there it was. What he said was, they had manipulated his  body to need this drug to survive, and if the drug was stopped, he would start to die. And it takes about three months, apparently, a very painful and horrible death.

This patch has to be replaced every 72 hours, and if he rebels or refuses to do anything they say, they don't replace the patch and he starts to die. They've done it to him once,  when he rebelled again. Now, apparently, he tells me, there are files at CIA headquarters which have identified scientists and people like that all over America. The same will be happening in other countries, too, of course.

They decide whether the patch is to be replaced, whether the scientist, at this point, is indispensable or dispensable, and all these things. He knows that, in the end, what they do is, when they've gleaned all the knowledge that you can give them, then they don't replace the patch because they don't want you going around talking about it.

They also do mind control on them, as well, which kind of  puts a mirror, a scan, across their mind, like a veil, so they don't remember much of it anyway when they leave these projects.

What he said to me was a number of things. First of all he said, big time, watch China, because that's part of The Agenda. The other thing he said-as you well know, as much as anyone-the technology has existed for a very long time to cure cancer. The technology has existed for a very long time to give us all the free energy we need, without utility bills. And he said another thing interesting, which was in his area of expertise; he said, "You know, the technology exists to create abundant growth in deserts, without water, using magnetics." He said, "At it's most optimum, you can see the crops grow like a time-lapse photograph." There is no need for anyone to be hungry, anywhere in the world.

But the point of telling you that story, apart from the interest of it, is that he said, basically, "If people are going to say no to just one thing, please tell them to say no to the microchip." He said this is because the microchip is not just about electronic tagging, as some conspiracy people think. Yes, it's about that, on one level, and it's certainly not just about making it easier to find your child. He said people don't realize the level of technology that exists.

He said the real use of the microchip in the population is to give external control of people's thinking and emotional processes through external signals and pulses. He said these  microchips, once they're inside you, the pulses that they send out to them-and a lot of the Star Wars thing is all, actually, the veil for the technology to control these microchips-they will be able to externally make you aggressive or docile, sexually aroused, sexually suppressed,       suppress your intellectual state so that you stop thinking to your capacity. And the idea is to literally turn humanity into a race of externally manipulated robots.

We are now in a situation where these microchips exist and they're just waiting for, probably, "problem, reaction, solution" to create a situation in which the chips become accepted.

And, it's interesting, when I spoke in South Africa last year, I got a heck of a lot of publicity very soon after I arrived because they didn't realize what I was saying, and a  lot of these things were live, of course. So, I was out there  talking, and before they realized what I was saying, in a  matter of three or four days, I talked live for 25 minutes to  29 African countries, on one occasion. As a result of this there was tremendous interest. Winnie Mandela came to one of  my talks. I had a private meeting with P. W. Botha, the  former President of South Africa. I'll tell you a story about him in a second. There was tremendous interest.

One of the journalists who'd interviewed me on one of their  main Current Affairs programs called me about two days later and he said, "I've had a very funny chap calling me." He rang, he said, and he didn't see the show but someone had told him about it. And he said he demanded to know how I, Icke:, knew about the microchip plan.

What it turned out is that this guy got the wrong end of the stick. He'd got the impression that I'd gone on this Current Affairs program and talked about the South Africa microchip program. I knew nothing about it, at the time. What I was talking about, of course, was the microchip agenda, globally.

Anyway, this guy, as a result of thinking I'd talked about it, blurted out some things because he was saying, "No one should know about this! Everyone's been sworn to secrecy!"

And the journalist said, "What are you talking about?"

And the caller said there was a company in South Africa which had been producing the microchips for the South African people, and they'd all been sworn-Official Secrets Act and all this stuff-not to talk about it and that the agenda that  they were working toward should not be known by the South African people. This came out as a result of him thinking I'd       blurted it all out, and I hadn't-I'd just talked about the global thing. So these things are happening in every country.

But the P.W. Botha thing is interesting. This is a nice one, and it's never come out before. I mentioned it in The Biggest Secret, I think. Never came out, to my knowledge. Winnie Mandela came to one of my talks in Johannesburg, I mean, a thousand people turned up! They were going crazy for it in South Africa. After a lot of publicity, I got a call from the  daughter of P. W. Botha, who was President during the apartheid years when Mandela was involved in the '80s, with F.W. de Klerk, and it was de Klerk who lead Mandela out and all that stuff, which again was all part of The Agenda.

It just turned South Africa from overt control to covert control-and of course, the world has walked away now, no longer paying attention-with the same people, the Oppenheimer family, running South Africa as they did before. It's just that no one is exposing it anymore because South Africa is free, you know, I read it in the newspaper somewhere.

His daughter said that Botha wanted to meet me. Now, as synchronicity would have it, I was talking at a small place, the only small place I spoke at, actually-I did the cities,mainly-and not far from down the coast from Port Elizabeth, and it just so happened that fifteen minutes from the point of the talk lived P. W. Botha in retirement. So I went to see him.

He was talking to me-I found it really bizarre, Rick, to be honest! I'm sitting there talking to the former President of South Africa, and he's asking me about the way in which this manipulation works. He's naming all the names like Kissinger and Carrington and Rockefeller, and all these people who manipulated South Africa, but he hadn't genuinely seen that actually South Africa was just one element in a global agenda. He thought they just had it in for South Africa.

When you realize that you can get to that level and people still don't bloody know what's going on, the compartmentalization just takes your breath away.

We started talking about the Rothschilds-this is the point-and he said, "Oh, yeah, I had an interesting meeting  with the Rothschilds. In the 1980s I was asked to host a  meeting with the English Rothschilds in Capetown."

He said the Rothschilds told him that there was money in Swiss bank accounts, great wealth in Swiss bank accounts, which once belonged to German Jews, and was available for investment in South Africa, if they could agree on interest rates. In other words, this Rothschild family, who are held up as like bastions of Judaism, and supporters and defenders       of Jewish people, have actually been lending money in Swiss bank accounts that once belonged to German Jews, and making a fortune from it, ever since the war. And P. W. Botha can vouch for this because he was offered it, in the 1980s in  Cape Town.

This is what Jewish people really ought to get wise to-that the Rothschilds are not on their side, not in the least, and  they have manipulated Jewish people as much as anyone else.  And, of course, one of the funders of Adolf Hitler, which starts to make things even more clear and starts to fit the picture even more clearly, why the banking family that funded and bankrolled Hitler, to a large extent, would, after the  war, be having control of the money from German Jews in Swiss  bank accounts, to the point where they could use it for their own gain ever since. And this, of course, is the money that came to light in the last couple of years and has caused this great scandal about people being denied their money.

Martin: You've stated that you've observed people waking up around the world. In the final analysis, what does that mean?

David Icke: It seems that there is a cycle, which we're coming  toward the end of, which is acting-it's a vibrational cycle,  in terms of it's effect on the Earth's field-which is acting like a spiritual alarm clock. It's beginning to wake people up from what I call the "terrestrial trance", the spiritual slumber is so long.

And this is why people close to Kissinger during the '70s  have told me that it was Kissinger and his cronies who actually created what we call the New-Age Movement, an  important point, this, vital. When I've said this, people have said, "Well, that's ridiculous!" Is it, really?

There's a vibrational cycle going on which is waking people up. Now, apart from going to the Sun and switching it off, or changing it's vibrational cycle, whatever, you have one other alternative-and that is to take awakening people, and put them in a position, preferably about a foot below the ceiling, where awakening people-on one level-are not going to become a danger to your agenda. And what they've done is, they're taking the spiritually awakening people and they've put them on the ceiling, overwhelmingly. Not all, by any means, but great, great numbers of them. And in that place  they are not involved in spirituality as change, they're involved in spirituality as escapism, spirituality as denial, spirituality as an excuse not to get your hands dirty in the three-dimensional world. They are in complete denial-most of those people, not all by any means, but most-of the fact that this manipulation is going on.

I keep hearing this, "Oh, it's negative. We shouldn't be talking about this." And then, on the other side, those who have identified the problem in America are overwhelmingly the Christian Patriot Movement, not exclusively by any means, but overwhelmingly that's the focus of so much of it. And they think that spirituality, as expressed metaphysically in the New-Age stuff, is the bloody devil.

So what the Illuminati have done magnificently is detach the metaphysical understanding of how we can get out of here from the three-dimensional, street-wise awareness of the manipulation. So, they've taken the problem and the solution and they've got one to identify the problem, and they've got the solution to be a denial there's a problem to solve, if you follow me.

Martin: I do.

David Icke: And they've done it brilliantly. And this is why Kissinger put out some of the New-Age big names, and still controls many of them who are still persuading people that,  in effect, the cavalry is going to come. And, so often, when you look at New-Age thought, it is merely another way of expressing a religious bloody thought. You know, instead of giving your mind away to deities or whatever, you're giving your mind away to gurus or to bloody external entities and stuff.

I'm not saying that we should not look at this information,  but we have to filter it through our own "truth detector" and come to our own truth, rather than having us be told by someone else how we should live our lives and how we should think and how we should see the world.

And in so many areas the New-Age movement has become just another form of religion and control. And I'll tell you what, in areas of the New-Age movement that I've experienced, you go against the "party line" and you see what happens. You  know, it's just like going against the party line of Christianity or going against the party line of the Pope-you get jumped on by the majority.

And individualism, while they talk about the necessity for it, the desire for it, is constantly crushed by the belief system of the group. It's interesting, you know, when I talk about this in my talks, everywhere I go in the world I get applause from the audience. Because I think people are starting to get sick of the New-Age movement, which is actually so often diverting us from and suppressing us from  the real truth of metaphysics. And the real truth is that WE, as individuals, are in control of our destiny, and not external forces being in control.

And so, I think it's very important, in the years that we are  in now, that we start to take our individual sovereignty back and start to realize that we have the right to decide our  truth and live our truth, and not have another truth imposed upon us, whether it's the New-Age movement, Christianity, Hinduism, Atheism, or whatever it is, because the whole basis of the control is getting individuality subordinated to the group, getting individuality suppressed by the majority, suppressed by the herd mentality.

There are two ways of solving the problem. We can find the solution to it, which is actually not the best way, because for me the best way of solving a problem is removing the cause of it and then it goes away. The cause of the few controlling the planet is people giving their power away and not thinking for themselves and just following the one in front without question. And, insisting-and this is the key thing, stage two-insisting that others do the same, because once that happens, you create a situation in which whoever sets the norms in the world, whether considered sane or insane, possible or impossible, moral or immoral, whoever sets those norms runs the world.

This happens because of the overwhelming, vast majority of humanity who have given their power away and given their thinking processes and individuality away, and will live their lives in accordance with those dictated norms because they're not thinking or questioning them.

Now, that's fine, that's a choice-I don't have a problem with that. The key thing, as I say, the people who succumb to those norms, they insist that those who don't want to do so should also succumb to those norms. And, at that point, when you have the herd policing itself, and making life unpleasant for those who wish to detach from it, at that point you have the basis, and only at that point, you have the basis on which the few who set the norms can run the world, because you get humanity becoming not just the sheep, but also the sheep-dog, not just the prisoner, but also the prison guards.

And only in that way, through thousands of years to the present minute, has it been possible for a few to control the world.

So, for me, three things would change this and would dramatically transform the world we live in for the better, because of all that would come from this. Those are:

One: as individuals, we step out of the fear of what other people think of us because that is the prison that most people live in. And once you're in the fear of what someone else thinks, you are not living YOUR life in YOUR truth; you are living someone else's version of what they think you should be. In other words, you're in the herd now. If we step out of the fear of what other people think, as individuals, and say, to use the title of one of my books, I Am Me, I Am Free, and if you don't like it, that's fine-you have a right not to like it-but this is me! At that point we cease to be a sheep. And if enough of us do it, we cease to be a herd of       sheep.

Second: we allow everyone else to express their uniqueness, even though it differs from ours. You know, "What a crime; call the police; my goodness me, this person thinks different than me!" Once we do that, we cease to be a sheep dog for the rest of the herd. Just those two things alone, and this whole edifice of imposed power starts to crumble because the very       basis of it is crumbling.

And third: the balance point, no one seeks to impose what they believe on anyone else, so all are respecting everyone's free will, so that my belief is not imposed on anyone else.

That's the reason why whatever anyone says about me or says  about what I write or what I say, I am completely at peace  with that because they have a right to think what they want to think. They only need to respect my right to have the same honor of having my feelings also honored, as my right to express them. This is why, when conspiracy theorists hurl abuse at others who say something different, I think they've lost the plot.

So, those three things would bring this edifice of power crumbling down, because they're the three things, in reverse, that allow the few to run the world. If we didn't concede our mentality to a herd mentality, and if we didn't insist that the people around us did the same, and if we respected everyone's right to express their uniqueness without having ours imposed upon them, then the ability of the few to control the planet would be removed, immediately, because those three things have to be in place-the herd mentality, the herd policing itself, imposing your will on others.

If those three things are not in place, you can't control centrally, it's impossible. And we have the ability and we have the choice, and that's all it is, now, to reverse those things, to remove them, just by how we react and act with each other, and bring this edifice of power crumbling down.   And this is the point, as all the circle starts to connect  itself, when we get, Rick, into that state of being where we  respect our own uniqueness and right to express it, when we       start to celebrate and glory in diversity instead of scorning it, when we allow other people to have that same privilege,  when we don't seek to impose our will onto others, at that point our vibrational state-because of our emotional and mental state of being-starts to vibrate quicker and quicker and quicker and we start to reconnect with those higher dimensions of ourselves and we start to become whole, multi-dimensional beings again instead of disconnected       fragments, caused by the vibration of fear and aggression and imposition.

So, actually, everything connects to everything else. And so, if we set ourselves free and set each other free, we become vibrationally reconnected and therefore free of this lower fourth-dimensional manipulation. Everything comes from our state of being and we're in complete control of that. Which is why only a few can control the world, because we've conceded our right to be who we are to somebody else.

Martin: That's a perfect place to end.

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